There has been some controversy on this board as of late in regards to some of the posts that I've been writing as I've been going through 1 Timothy. My wife is much more of an expert then I am on the gender-role debate so in response to the questions posed under another post. This is written to any of the detractors of our view. Enjoy!
First, The role of women in the church today is probably one of the most emotionally charged issues in American evangelicalism today. This debate has hit men and women alike to the core because it affects all aspects of life. First, we must affirm that the creation narrative in Genesis 1:27 views men and women as equally created in the image of God. Therefore, according to Wayne Grudem, men and women have equal value to God, and should be seen by us as having absolutely equal value as persons, and likewise, value to the church. God’s Holy Word is a woman’s authority (Deuteronomy 6:6-9) and God’s glory is our purpose (Isaiah 43:7)
In the beginning, God created woman has a helper, and as equal in essence yet different in role. God affirms the beauty of manhood and womanhood, the equality of the both genders, and the striking differences in roles of both men and women found throughout the Bible to show his glory. Women can ultimately glorify him by keeping with what the entire Bible clearly states is her function. God created women for a completely different function than men and when this function is ignored, relationships are damaged and God’s glory may be hindered. Glorifying God should be every woman’s goal in all that she does.
This excerpt is from a 50 page paper I did at seminary. The funny thing is that it was not until the feminist revolution that people started to think this way. Since the beginning society has accept man has the protector and the provider but now all of a sudden if a woman cannot be the protector and the provider she is not worth anything! We are not talking about the workplace here, we are taking about who is the spiritual leader. Furthermore, we are talking specifically about the husband and wife relationship for that is the time when God tells the woman to submit. If both the husband and the wife are the heads, then it is a terrible two headed monster. Coming from a woman’s perspective let me tell you, we want to control men, we want to lead. I really think that is a part of the curse.
An interesting punishment that God decrees on Eve as a result of the fall is found in Genesis 3:16b, “Your desire will be for your husband, but he must rule over you.” The phrase “your desire will be for you husband,” usually is understood to mean that Eve will want to control her husband. However, the phrase “he must/will rule over you,” has been debated. The word “rule” could be translated to mean the exercise of godly headship which matches the reasoning found in Genesis 4:7 or it could mean that Adam is going to exercise ungodly domination at times as a result of the curse. However the reader wants to translate the word rule, “nothing can change the fact that God created male headship as one of the aspect of our pre-fall perfection.” Moreover, Ortlund affirms that, “Christian redemption does not redefine creation; it restores creation, so that wives can learn godly submission and husbands learn godly headship.” Christ did not come to redefine creation, but to restore creation to the perfect order God created it to be.
Egalitarians rightly argue that both Adam and Eve were created in God’s image, however inaccurately affirm that Adam’s role as the head is a result of mankind’s fall from grace. Furthermore, they would profess that women no longer have the obligation to submit to their husbands because Christ came to this earth and established a new covenant. Egalitarians have to reinterpret many passages of Scripture concerning a women’s role in the church to fit their view (Eph. 5:21-22; Col. 3: 18-19; 1 Peter 3:1-7). Ultimately, this view must be rejected for it elevates a women’s experience above the authority of the Word of God.
Complementarians argue that both Adam and Eve were equally created in God’s image, but that Adam’s role as head of the home was established before the fall, and is not a result of sin (Gen 2-3). Women are created equal in essence yet different in function. Complementarians believe that a wife should graciously submit to her husband’s servant leadership, care and protection (Eph. 5:21-22; Col. 3: 18-19; 1 Peter 3:1-7). Even though there are some qualifications for women in church life, the many valuable ministries of women far outweigh the few restrictions Scripture imposes.
You probably fall under the egalitarian camp and that is fine we can agree to disagree. The most important thing in Christianity is that Jesus came and died for our sins and we can either accept or reject him. We do not have to work our way to heaven. However, you cannot argue 1 Tim. Or Ephesians as cultural because it is rooted in creation. Other aspects like wearing pearls are not. It goes back to theological basis. The Bible says a woman cannot teach or have authority over man BECAUSE man was created first. If you say this is not fair, then you will have to take it up with our Creator. However, you cannot get past this huge reason on why woman are to learn in silence (Meaning not interrupting the teacher and asking too many questions). They are not to do so because of the order in which God created man and woman and because of how man and woman fell into sin. Moo goes on to assert that complementarians believe that 1 Timothy 2:8-15 imposes two restrictions on the ministry of women: “they are not to teach doctrine to men and they are not to exercise authority directly over men in the church.” Only two restrictions of women in ministry in the local church are found in this passage; there are numerous other roles women can fill in their church. 1 Timothy 2:13-14 states, “For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.” The creation of Adam before Eve, signaled that men are to teach and exercise authority in the church. Furthermore, the events in Genesis 3 confirm the need for male leadership. Eve took over the leadership role and responded to the serpent as Adam just stood back and did not lead Eve. He allowed Eve to sinfully react to the serpent. However, even though Eve was the first to sin, the responsibility for the sin is given to Adam in Romans 5:12-19.
Lastly, Complementarians hold that Deborah did not publicly teach both men and women, and that Deborah stepped up in leadership because Barak would not. In all the biblical texts where women are prophesying, they do not teach the Word that was given to them, they just proclaim it. Thomas R. Schreiner points out that Deborah's prophetic and judging ministry was different from that of her male counterparts:
"Note that Deborah did not go out and publicly proclaim the word of the Lord. Instead, individuals came to her in private for a word from the Lord. The difference between Deborah's prophetic ministry and that of male Old Testament prophets is clear. She did not exercise her ministry in a public forum as they did. Note that even when she speaks to Barak she calls him and speaks to him individually (Judges 4:6, 14)."
Schreiner explains that because she did not go out and publicly proclaim the word of God she exercised her prophetic ministry in a way that did not obstruct male headship. Ligon Duncan praises the fact that God choose women prophetesses in the Old Testament. He states this fact for many reasons. First, it shows that men who were writing Scripture, “did not think that women were some sort of inferior being incapable morally or intellectually to fulfill some significant role in the Kingdom.” These men who wrote Scripture where not male chauvinist “that just need to be enlightened into our modern ways of looking at women which are much more higher and more appreciative and affirming ways of looking at women.” Finally, Duncan asserts that a female prophetess in the Old Testament is the exception to the rule. He affirms that God brought Deborah onto the “scene to take up that role as a judge and a prophetess, is because Barak is wimping out on his responsibilities. So, to rebuke Israel, God raises up Deborah to basically say, ‘Barak, get off your duff and do your work, man. You’re called by God and you’re falling down on the job. If you fall down on the job, then I’ll just raise someone up that normally is not called to be in this role.’ So she’s the exception that proves the rule in that regard. The most important idea though to understand is one person is not deemed "better" because they have a different role. We do not get out self worth from our positions in life...we get it from Christ.
Thursday, January 11, 2007
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14 comments:
http://www.cbeinternational.org/new/index.shtml or
http://www.cbmw.org/
To get more information. The first link is the site for Christians for Biblical Equality and the other one is the Council on Biblicial Manhood and Womanhood
January 11, 2007 7:53:00 AM PST
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CBE is the egalitarian viewpoint.
CBMW is the complementarian viewpoint.
Emily,
I am grateful for godly, intelligent, and biblical women such as yourself. Thanks for the input.
This is Charlie.
"Why do you or others think it applies to all women all the time but only limited to a Church setting?"
The context of the letters to Timothy (2/3s of the Pastoral Epistles) are written regarding church practices. I would surmise that 99% of commentaries would agree to this statement. Therefore, one would logically deduce that Paul's instructions to Timothy and Titus are pastoral and ecclesiolgocal in nature.
"If that IS the case how does one put up with all the women in the world that hold positions over men?"
Again, we are talking about a church setting.
Also, we are not trying to suppress women! We are trying to be Biblical and know where does Paul prohibit women from learning!
Are you a church member or a visitor? Either way we are excited that you are attending our conference.
I do take some offense to the claim that, I, as a woman is seen as being suppressed because I stay at home to raise my child. This is not all I can do, but it is one of the functions that God calls me to.
To me, it is freeing and fulfilling to know that I am doing what God has created me to do, which is to love him with all my heart, to worship Him, and to gloify Him in all that I do. Additionally he created me primarily to be a wife first, and then a mother - everything else (including jobs) is secondary. It is very stressfull when the world says you can have it all---you can have a great marriage, raise godly children, have a career that demands 60 plus hours of your week, and if you do not do this something is wrong with you.
Our society is at a point where many women do not have the choice to work or to stay home. When women joined the workforce and were told that they would not be fulfilled unless they were out making a "name" for themselves, men actually took a pay cut. Before, men were paid a household salary. Now, thanks to the women's movement they are not. Now, women, including me, have the agonizing delima of going back to work and how that is going to work out. Regardless, God created me in HIS perfect plan, and all women, in the beginning to be a helper for my husband and to bear children (if that is possible). He also calls some women to be single which is an enitrely different subject(we are talking about the husband wife relationship here). He created me equal in essence to man. Why would he create me to do the same exact task that Adam is already doing? God made women fully capable of learning and growing to know God truly and to know his Word.
We really look forward to meeting you and especially your wife! I am glad that we can have a healthy debate on this issue. I really believe God uses these dicussions to grow us in the knowledge of Him and His glorious Word.
I totally agree with you, Emily, and am extremely thankful for your intelligence and desire to glorify God.
I wanted to point out a couple things. First, the women's movement did do a lot of bad things. For instance, you feel the pressure to go to work outside the home when that is not necessarily your role as a wife. I agree with you (though I have no children). I want to point out that as frustrating as the effects of the women's movement have been (especially in Germany), that unless that had happened we, most likely, would not have been able to go to school. You would not have learned all you learned, we could not vote, etc. It may have been radical and caused great damage, but it did some good. I am thankful I can go to school and work if I want to (even though I don't want to!).
Secondly, I have struggled with these issues since I joined the Southern Baptist church (only 5 years ago). Part of the reason is that I saw "humble, quiet" women in the church, but in their homes they were quite different. I always felt this small repression in the church to be who I am not. I felt that I could not ask questions, that I could not talk, that I could not even be as social as I wanted. It was highly frustrating and I was very tempted to leave the church altogether. You are one of the few women that I have seen who truly loves your husband and does not "fake" it in church. I wrestled through these issues and completely agree with you, but I sure have a bad taste left in my mouth over the things I saw in church.
Kaitlin,
Thanks so much for the kind words!
I am very thankful of the women's sufferage movement of the 1920's that allowed women the right to vote. I also am thankful that women are treated as equals in our society. I do believe that the Bible sees men and women as equals and we should uphold that. We should never deny women basic human rights such as education, etc.
I am a little confussed though---did people tell you not to ask questions in church? Or you just felt that women acted one way in church (all quiet) and then at home they ran the show? Do you think maybe they just could be shy around a lot of people? Did they tell you they were trying to be quiet in church? Thanks girl!
Hey, I was thinking it over a little more this morning after I wrote that. First, it might have been my own problem--feeling that way. But, I actually saw it happen when women were quiet in church and I would go to their homes and it was a new ballgame (not WCC!). And I suppose I felt a quiet repression, which may have been my own problem. I don't know really. I never thought that they were maybe shy. Emily, to be honest, I just am not sure. I could think of a few reasons why I think I felt that way, but it does not come down to feeling, it comes down to doctrine. I totally agree with you and strive to be a woman as God created us! Have you ever read "Fearlessly Feminine"? This is my favorite book on the woman's role. It has helped me tremendously in my confusions. I think they sell it at CBMW.
I don't mean to put down SBC in ANYway. I was sharing the reason that I looked into these issues, and for that, I am very thankful! We also love the SBC church and plan to stay members of it (well, when we are in the states!). I am thankful for their stands and that they do not back down. I am thankful for their leaders, that they teach women as well as men, and for the priceless friends I have met there. I am especially thankful for the position the Bible holds in the church.
I hope that makes more sense to you.
Again, thank you for your post!
oops, I meant thankful for the position the church holds on the Bible! :)
By the way, we are six or seven hours ahead of you guys so I have been thinking over this this morning when you all are just getting up! I just want to clarify that I have no place to say anything because I am not learned or studied. So if I have offended anyone, I am truly sorry!
I definitely think we are on the same page! You did not offend me at all I just wanted to know exactly what your happened with your experience. Many people really misunderstand or take Biblical womanhood to the wrong extreme so I was just curious about what went on with your situation. However, I know some ladies that are just shy around a lot of people.
I have not read that book but will definetly try to read it this year. By the way as long as you have a brain you are qualified to say what you have learned.
Are you taking classes in Germany? Is it major culture shock over there? and how is everything going? If you do not want to respond here on Charlie's blog---email me at EmilyWallace80@hotmail.com. Hope you are having a great day!
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