My Scripture memory sabbatical is over. I know I kind of left everyone (I know there are tons of you out there) on a cliff-hanger as I stopped on 1 Tim. 2:11. I had to this because as I entered the holiday season (Christmas and New Year's) it became increasingly difficult to spend the time needed to practice my daily Scripture memory routine (sans Sundays).
Now, however, I am back in the saddle. And the verse that stares me in the face this morning?
"I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet." (ESV)
However, I do not think you can have a conversation on this verse without including verse 13 which states:
"For Adam was formed first, then Eve."
Paul seems to be rooting this command in the created order. This is the main reason that I do not simply dismiss verse 12 to a cultural situation.
There has been tons written on this topic. Indeed, I just participated in a discussion on Drew Jones' blog on this very topic. Go there to read my practical application of how this would work in a church setting.
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7 comments:
I've got a request for you, Charlie. On my blog post on Grudem, my mother-in-law responded and was none too happy.
I'm responding to her, so I'm asking all of you seminary geniuses not to reply to her post, so I can focus on being a bit more pastoral in answering her concerns. Thanks!
3...2...1...BOOM!
Understand completely. Unfortunately, you are arguing with 50+ years of feminist thinking that has pervaded our culture.
50+ years? try just a few years ago when the SBC stated that women cannot be ministers. yet the Bible is chock full of women who held positions over men. Deborah & Pricilla to name a few. Having read what you posted on the Gruden blog about how it only applies to a secular setting I believe the BIBLE applies to ALL settings... and I do like what you said "we need to determine what a man is "etc and that back then a man was basically any non-female 13 or over. Soooo Today's average 13 year old XBOX playing "MAN" is more qualified then ANY woman to lead in a church?? Umm I don't think so,, I believe Paul was addressing a particular group of gossips at the time, not all women all the time. I also find it funny that the Baptist Churches in the Sumter area I have attended have many women Sunday school teachers ,quire directors (A ministry in itself!!), secretaries in-charge of the Churches money. ETC ETC.. some of those Sunday school teachers GASP, even teach men!! Yet If you are an SBC affiliated woman and God calls you to Preach you cant simply because some old dudes strictly interpret Two biblical passages while ignoring the many other examples?? Heck since when did it become fashionable to cull through select passages in the Bible just so we can support a position while ignoring other passages? are some parts of the Bible actually more important then others? The point is I find the Bible has more positions stating that women should be allowed to hold positions WITH and even sometimes over men.. Then the other way around. We are ALL under GOD so why the silly semantics... BTW I think its cool you have a BLOG, I love this kind of stuff, and my comments are not aimed at you or anybody for that matter i am just pointing out the other view. i love a good debate and that passage always gets me going..
It appears that the same debate is ramping up on both blogs for the same subject. May I suggest that we restrain our debate to one venue for clarity's sake?
Swedge,
Thanks for visiting. I enjoy a good debate as well.
Feminism originated in the 1950's. Because of this and its impact on society, the SBC had to pass a resolution stating that the office of pastor is reserved for men since people started to more and more interpret Scripture from a cultural lens.
"The Bible is chock full of women who held positions over men."
Who?
Deborah and Priscilla were not pastors. Deborah was a judge who "judged" which means she gave advice and did not lead her people into battle...Barak did.
What "position" did Priscilla have? When I read the Bible she is always side by side with her husband.
I wouldn't argue that a 13 year old is more qualified...I would argue that a 30 year old (considered an elder in the Bible) is more qualified.
Many Baptist churches do have women SS teachers. This is something that has developed over the years, primarily because men will not step up to the plate and teach.
I don't see how secretaries have any kind of church authority.
"Heck since when did it become fashionable to cull through select passages in the Bible just so we can support a position while ignoring other passages?"
Since the time of Marcion and the Gnostics to name a few...which is why I try to be as Biblical as I can be.
Sorry if I did not respond to all of your claims. You have presented many different arguments and they seem to run together.
Gnostic influence in the churches did not occur until the second century. We may see a hint of early Gnosticism in the Johannine literature, but certainly not in Paul.
"Also as far as Adam being formed first what does that have to do with the Cultural interpretation of it? The beasts were formed before Adam are they superior?"
Paul's argument in 1 Timothy 2 hinges on this point. He is going back to the divine ordering of relationships before the Fall, and using that as evidence for male leadership in the Church. Paul does not mention animals in 1 Timothy 2, so your comments in that respect are unwarranted and do nothing but distract from the question at hand. You may not like Paul's argument, but you can take that up with him.
kamov,
I defer you to my latest post.
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